Cutting the Combat

[Morreion]

The Daily Grind: Cutting the combat (Massively)

Would you consider an MMOG without combat? Can you even imagine one being popular -- or is combat the core mechanic around which all big-time MMOGs must inevitably revolve?

This is an interesting question. I like games that are out-of-the-ordinary, and non-combat games like A Tale in the Desert are great because they are so different than the typical MMO. I am also a big fan of non-combat systems and mechanics in games, such as gardening in UO or non-combat careers such as fisherman & beggars in UO and entertainers & doctors in old-school SWG. However, I find myself drawn to combat as a central organizing factor in the games I play. I'd certainly consider a non-combat MMO, though I seem to subconsciously look for a combat system as a given. Perhaps I've been brainwashed in that sense!

[dotty]

Non-combat games lose my interest after awhile. I like combat occasionally. A quick reward for sharpening my skills and downing an opponent. I prefer PvP combat over PvE, as fighting a computer can get boring after awhile. I also really like sandbox games that let players create their own combat systems, weapons, and games within the game. The creativity out there is amazing.

There's not many places where you can be quietly baking bread in a home you built. When suddenly a raiding clan forces their way through your town defenses and past the bowmen on the walls. You throw the burned muffin in your hand at the raider (and it hits/hurts him) as you unsheathe your axes. Through skill and luck you knock him unconscious and start tying him up, but you silently curse the politicians who refused to trade goods for this man's sister down in the town's dungeon.
...this was my day yesterday. Help? I might be stuck here. hehe

[EchoVamper]

OK, you two have hooked me into this discussion. I think my best answer involves splicing this quote in from the other thread in this forum:

Now let me combine my ideas about RPG’s with the ones about MMO’s to create what I feel makes a MMORPG:

* Story plays a central role, and the players are involved as characters participating in the world while this story unfolds.
* Large-scale social interaction and collaboration bridge involvement with a two-way interaction between the game and/or other players.
* A persistent world that continues regardless of the interaction from players.
* Combat is more considered than a pure action game and incorporates tactical concepts.
* The player’s character grows over the course of the game developing skills, abilities, etc.

There aren’t many MMORPG’s being made anymore in my opinion. I think that most fall into some sort of “MMOG” subgenre and in many cases they’re starting to create their own. It would be nice to see a MMORPG again but I’m beginning to think that the games have “evolved” or “lost their way” because players do not enjoy this style of game — or do they? I think it’s harder for a team to create a MMORPG because of the way in which the world of the game and the social interactions and story must be a central focus rather than the individual being the focus.

In other words, I more or less want a MMORPG. I do think that tactical combat is something that is essential to me, but I want a world to go with my combat. I want a "reason" to fight, I want a community around me, and I want to choose when and what to engage in at a particular time (within the defined limits of the world of course). If I want to be a blacksmith that makes truly legendary weapons then I want to do that AND HAVE IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE! If I want to wander around and explore, then I want a context in which to do that. And at times I want to be able to attack or defend, but for a "cause".

I know I'm in the presence of some real veterans of the early RPGs with this so I apologize if this sounds stupid or ill-informed. There was a time a long time ago when for a brief period (very brief, only a few weeks) I played a game on AOL. I think it was an early iteration of Gemstone or maybe Dragon something. At any rate, the characters in that world were truly developed even though it was so highly text-oriented. And I mean these personnas were EXTREMELY vital. There were times in my newbness that I couldn't tell an NPC from a player because everything and everybody was so thoroughly embedded in the world concept. Now real life came along and jettisoned me out of that game and I never got back to it. But even though I don't remember it that well, if I had to say what I really want... I think it would be THAT GAME, but with the trappings of modern technology.

I read Keen from time to time. I don't always agree with his ideas, but on this one I think he's pretty close.

P.S. - You may need to try unleavened muffins for a while, they hurt more and have some stun on them.

[Regolyth]

I love my PvP too much to give it up. However, I did love me some crafting, mining and fishing in Ultima Online. However, my crafting was usually of weapons of war. The mining aided that effort. And occasionally, while fishing, you'd have to beat someone with your pole so they didn't steal from you (I've seriously killed other players with my fishing pole - it was the craziest thing ever).

[Morreion]

OK Rego, I need to hear the PvP fishing pole story! *laughs* Good old UO!

[Regolyth]

So I'm standing on the banks outside of Trinsnic or Vesper, I don't recall which. Anyways, I was trying to raise my fishing skill up so we could go sailing and pull up some treasure chests, and maybe a kraken or two.

I see some random person's name off the side of my screen. I didn't give it much though, until he was still there two minutes later. He casually walked by, stole a pile of fish steaks, and then ran. So I booked it right behind him. The character I was on had a good bit of fighting skill, but no weapons. So I auto attacked the guy with my fishing pole. I started laughing to myself, thinking of whipping someone with a fishing pole. Well, he tried to duck and weave through the woods, but I was navigating them pretty well, and kept beating on him. I guess he didn't put many points into health because I was tearing him up. I eventually killed him somewhere close to town. It took a good three or four minutes, but I got my fish steaks back.

[Rakul]

You sure like your fish!

[dotty]

Jan 28, 2010 12:46:38 GMT -5 EchoVamper said:

There was a time a long time ago when for a brief period (very brief, only a few weeks) I played a game on AOL. I think it was an early iteration of Gemstone or maybe Dragon something. At any rate, the characters in that world were truly developed even though it was so highly text-oriented. And I mean these personnas were EXTREMELY vital. There were times in my newbness that I couldn't tell an NPC from a player because everything and everybody was so thoroughly embedded in the world concept. Now real life came along and jettisoned me out of that game and I never got back to it. But even though I don't remember it that well, if I had to say what I really want... I think it would be THAT GAME, but with the trappings of modern technology.

That sure sounds like Gemstone to me. The original players of the game were like icons in the world.
This, this is what you want - www.play.net/hj/ Volunteer developers do not work very quickly. I figure I might be playing it in my retirement years. The engine they created is for sale... anyone want to make this game?

Jan 28, 2010 12:46:38 GMT -5 EchoVamper said:

P.S. - You may need to try unleavened muffins for a while, they hurt more and have some stun on them.

The muffin was handy... I had a slave with me and she was throwing rocks at him the whole time. There are no stun effects, no mezzing, no roots, no escape within that combat system. Other than cheating which is announced to all players within the area.

[EchoVamper]

Jan 29, 2010 11:39:29 GMT -5 dotty said:

That sure sounds like Gemstone to me. The original players of the game were like icons in the world.

Yes, I did some checking. It was Gemstone, and I was only there for a brief time. Real life truncated that experience for me and I never got back to it. But what I remember was just as you say..."icons in the world". Many of the players in that world were larger than life...more important and more influential than any NPC could ever be. Only the GMs had as much sway on your in-game experience, and they were unbelievably creative.

The other thing I remember was how welcoming and patient most of the people were. Oh, there was danger and there were shady characters, but it was well managed, and by the players themselves (and true GMs) more than anything..

Talk about immersion. The roleplaying was exemplary, and much deviation from that was not really tolerated that I could tell. In fact, it was the hardest part for me to learn. Everything else I needed to get started was basically given to me freely and in abundance. But I was held to a code of RP by nearly everyone I met. I learned quite a bit about RP in that brief time...and later put it to some use in DAoC.

I don't think I appreciated all of it enough at the time, but I certainly do now.

[dotty]

Gemstone still exists, and they offer a level of immersion that is insanely good. There's two reasons I'm not there now. Main reason - I am scared I would get lost in there AGAIN and never escape out. Truly. Other reason - the price for what I want is insane. I was paying $67.50 per month. 2 accounts with piles of items in regular world, and a fresh character in the ultimate immersion "Platinum" world.

Basic Subscription ($14.95) + Premium Subscription ($25.00) + Platinum Subscription ($10.00) = $49.95.