Post by Morreion on May 17, 2015 8:06:42 GMT -5
Ask Mo: The trouble with roleplaying in MMORPGs (MOP)
Would you welcome a large scale roleplaying-enforced MMORPG? This question spawned all sorts of talk about RP in general.
...Modern roleplay servers — when they exist at all — are never RP-enforced or RP-encouraged. At best, they’re code for “mature” gamers. Jocks and script kiddies usually know to stay away, and more serious players learn to congregate there; even if they have no specific interest in roleplaying, they’d rather be around roleplayers than be stuck with the average mouthy gamer trashing-talking in /general.
In our current environment, where MMORPGs have become diluted and their greater audience is even less interested in multiplayer roleplay than it was 10 or 15 years ago, it makes a depressing sort of sense that studios are ignoring not only player-driven roleplay but mechanics for built-in, character-driven roleplay as Avaera describes as well. The closest we’re likely to ever get is skill-by-use, aging mechanics, reputation systems, and SWTOR-esque alignments-via-quest-choices, and they’re likely to be systems tacked on to a game with more mass appeal, not placed at the core of an MMO. That’s especially true as developers churn out cheap and disposable themeparks that include few roles beyond Psychopathic Adventurer in them to begin with. Almost no one is making virtual worlds where playing anything but that would make sense in the first place. You don’t have to work hard to roleplay at being a blacksmith or a bard in a real virtual world; you just are one.
But I’m not sure we can blame game developers alone for giving roleplaying the shaft. I used to roleplay heavily and took my in-character roles seriously, more seriously than I took the rest of each MMO I played for sure. I dedicated buckets of time to backstories and cultivating character relationships and plots. I spent way too many hours writing stories to fill in the gaps between in-game scenes, and I stayed up far too many nights in a cantina playing out dramatic episodes that just evolved organically. It was the sort of activity I felt I could do only if I did it really well and obsessively.
Comments:
Would you welcome a large scale roleplaying-enforced MMORPG? This question spawned all sorts of talk about RP in general.
...Modern roleplay servers — when they exist at all — are never RP-enforced or RP-encouraged. At best, they’re code for “mature” gamers. Jocks and script kiddies usually know to stay away, and more serious players learn to congregate there; even if they have no specific interest in roleplaying, they’d rather be around roleplayers than be stuck with the average mouthy gamer trashing-talking in /general.
In our current environment, where MMORPGs have become diluted and their greater audience is even less interested in multiplayer roleplay than it was 10 or 15 years ago, it makes a depressing sort of sense that studios are ignoring not only player-driven roleplay but mechanics for built-in, character-driven roleplay as Avaera describes as well. The closest we’re likely to ever get is skill-by-use, aging mechanics, reputation systems, and SWTOR-esque alignments-via-quest-choices, and they’re likely to be systems tacked on to a game with more mass appeal, not placed at the core of an MMO. That’s especially true as developers churn out cheap and disposable themeparks that include few roles beyond Psychopathic Adventurer in them to begin with. Almost no one is making virtual worlds where playing anything but that would make sense in the first place. You don’t have to work hard to roleplay at being a blacksmith or a bard in a real virtual world; you just are one.
But I’m not sure we can blame game developers alone for giving roleplaying the shaft. I used to roleplay heavily and took my in-character roles seriously, more seriously than I took the rest of each MMO I played for sure. I dedicated buckets of time to backstories and cultivating character relationships and plots. I spent way too many hours writing stories to fill in the gaps between in-game scenes, and I stayed up far too many nights in a cantina playing out dramatic episodes that just evolved organically. It was the sort of activity I felt I could do only if I did it really well and obsessively.
Comments:
I am a veteran role-player who has RPed in numerous MMOs across over a decade. I've also RPed online via other means, and been playing tabletop RPGs for over twenty years. I also accept the realities of the situation.
Even on designated Role-play servers, the actual role-players are a minority. And those that actively role-play are probably a minority within that. I have character backstories and ideas, I have personalities and think about how my characters would respond to in-game situations and the like, but I don't actively RP any more.
Companies don't cater to the role-players for exactly that reason. They're going to provide some tools - emotes, text bubbles, character description boxes if you're lucky - but beyond that is an investment of time, money and resources that aren't profitable and are unlikely to be used by any other then a tiny fragment of the population. Likewise, "enforcing" RP rules on a server is an investment of time and resources (especially people) that is anything but cost-viable. Likewise, "enforcing" RP rules is ultimately subjective. What the players think is acceptable might not match to official company guidelines.
Speaking of, being honest, RP communities also become a bane to open RP. Instead they become cliquish, insular, entitled and excruciatingly prone to drama, especially when IC and OOC boundaries get crossed. There are several key rules that also become wedged into nearly any RP community that end up becoming ultimately self-destructive. "All RP is good RP" and "Nobody is allowed to criticize" often take root with negative results; you're not allowed to call someone on their "bad" RP ("My character is a Vampire Sith Lord Catgirl" when you're playing WoW) and instead you get people encouraging it because, hey, its promoting RP, right?
In the end, RP is a nice side-bar, but it's never going to be a focus for a MMO.
Even on designated Role-play servers, the actual role-players are a minority. And those that actively role-play are probably a minority within that. I have character backstories and ideas, I have personalities and think about how my characters would respond to in-game situations and the like, but I don't actively RP any more.
Companies don't cater to the role-players for exactly that reason. They're going to provide some tools - emotes, text bubbles, character description boxes if you're lucky - but beyond that is an investment of time, money and resources that aren't profitable and are unlikely to be used by any other then a tiny fragment of the population. Likewise, "enforcing" RP rules on a server is an investment of time and resources (especially people) that is anything but cost-viable. Likewise, "enforcing" RP rules is ultimately subjective. What the players think is acceptable might not match to official company guidelines.
Speaking of, being honest, RP communities also become a bane to open RP. Instead they become cliquish, insular, entitled and excruciatingly prone to drama, especially when IC and OOC boundaries get crossed. There are several key rules that also become wedged into nearly any RP community that end up becoming ultimately self-destructive. "All RP is good RP" and "Nobody is allowed to criticize" often take root with negative results; you're not allowed to call someone on their "bad" RP ("My character is a Vampire Sith Lord Catgirl" when you're playing WoW) and instead you get people encouraging it because, hey, its promoting RP, right?
In the end, RP is a nice side-bar, but it's never going to be a focus for a MMO.
I have to agree with the general consensus. RP is a very niche community. It's also not easy to get into, especially in "starting zones" of any particular game. I've been looking for an RP home since Saturday. I've scoured the internet from page to page, probably hundreds in all honesty in search of the best communities for RP. LOTRO and Landroval or Laurelin are probably the number one thing to have come up in every type of page I could find, but when you log into the game and you explore the starting areas and you listen to world chat it would be quite easy for anybody to doubt the existence of RP on either server.
Every once in a while a message will pop up for guilds recruiting and even on the declared RP servers, guilds list RP as an after thought not their main focus. To be honest, with the game as glitch riddled as it is, I'm not sure I can stay for the actual grind of LOTRO. I'm looking for RP and I'm going to continue to look for RP, but I'm not sure any of the current selection of MMOs have exactly what it takes to make RP a primary focus. Perhaps the next small indie studio decides to kickstart an all RP mmo. While there's a small chance they'd sell to at least a moderately wide audience, the chances are they would sell to a very small audience and quite possibly close down as soon as they opened up.
Alas, my quest shall continue.
Every once in a while a message will pop up for guilds recruiting and even on the declared RP servers, guilds list RP as an after thought not their main focus. To be honest, with the game as glitch riddled as it is, I'm not sure I can stay for the actual grind of LOTRO. I'm looking for RP and I'm going to continue to look for RP, but I'm not sure any of the current selection of MMOs have exactly what it takes to make RP a primary focus. Perhaps the next small indie studio decides to kickstart an all RP mmo. While there's a small chance they'd sell to at least a moderately wide audience, the chances are they would sell to a very small audience and quite possibly close down as soon as they opened up.
Alas, my quest shall continue.
Melissa's Wishlist For Meaningful Roleplay
1) a server that is declared as RP to attract people who actually want to play that way
2) an avatar creator that is detailed so that you develop an attachment to your avatar, and thus, yourself and your place in the game world
3) automatic emotes based on keywords in text (like SWG)
4) SOEmote or equivalent that captures your facial expressions and maps them to your avatar, even including voice filters so that playing as various races becomes more realistic - i.e. hobbits have high voice, ogres have deep voices, etc.
5) rich profiles with editable histories and backstories and diaries
6) Housing that allows you to create a place you want to bring people to and show them for socializing and some reason to be there - vista, location, some attraction to make housing a place you want to be
7) as big a wardobe as can possibly be provided, including wedding and formal attire. A few simple props, and people can actually live in your universe... all you need is one wedding dress and one tux outfit and you'll see weddings in your game.
8) chat bubbles for those without headsets
9) race-bound languages that must be unlocked via exposure to them like in EQ1
10)Free camera mode for game photography and machinima
1) a server that is declared as RP to attract people who actually want to play that way
2) an avatar creator that is detailed so that you develop an attachment to your avatar, and thus, yourself and your place in the game world
3) automatic emotes based on keywords in text (like SWG)
4) SOEmote or equivalent that captures your facial expressions and maps them to your avatar, even including voice filters so that playing as various races becomes more realistic - i.e. hobbits have high voice, ogres have deep voices, etc.
5) rich profiles with editable histories and backstories and diaries
6) Housing that allows you to create a place you want to bring people to and show them for socializing and some reason to be there - vista, location, some attraction to make housing a place you want to be
7) as big a wardobe as can possibly be provided, including wedding and formal attire. A few simple props, and people can actually live in your universe... all you need is one wedding dress and one tux outfit and you'll see weddings in your game.
8) chat bubbles for those without headsets
9) race-bound languages that must be unlocked via exposure to them like in EQ1
10)Free camera mode for game photography and machinima
1. Its about time that mmos start releasing what I like to call "boutique" mmorpgs, meaning where are the luxury cars of the mmo world? The higher end, more expensive but higher quality services? Yes I get that EQ1 tried this in its time but that was a long time ago and nowadays the much of the crowd that would truly enjoy an immersive rp environment I am willing to bet would also be willing to pay more per month for a rp enforced server. Honestly I don't want to play with everyone anymore. I WANT to play on a server that replicates the experience of the best NWN persistent worlds, I want GM events like the old EQ, player controlled NPCs and active roles in an everchanging world. I think Shards Online can definitely achieve this and I think that the NWN style of smaller persistent worlds is the way to go. For a higher quality experience, meaning better AI, better world design and people who like to rp the way I like to, I'd be willing to pay 40 dollars a month instead of paying for the different mmos I pay for per month just to find good roleplaying experiences. We have luxury cars, high end computers, first class airplane seats and high end grocery stores so why can't I get a high end mmo that caters to roleplayers (or at least has servers that cater to them exclusively) for a better overall play experience. For years we have suffered under the "everybody must be able to participate" regime. I don't NEED to be on a server with 10000 other roleplayers. I would be happy to be on a server with 200 people who want to be there, who want to enjoy the world and who know that lore is king. I'm a traditional lore loving hardcore heavy rp snob and proud to be one and I would love to be around those that feel the same, not to mention honestly, you get what you pay for and by "wanting everyone to play!" we are right now getting crap in a bucket because cheap givings leads to cheap results. Rp sucks right now because its a joke, reputation doesn't matter on your average rp server and there is absolutely nothing wrong with exclusivity. MUD's have survived well enough because those that play on them know this - when are we going to get the MMORPG equivalent? Not every story is for everyone and I wish that our community would stop trying to be all hippie about this. Our playstyle is always criticized because there are no hallmarks of it! I mean what do you expect? Do you honestly think devs are going to break their backs to build something that consists of quality experiences for free? NO! You have to pay for it! There are more than enough games where casual rp survives and thrives, when are we going to get our high end art of the genre? Or at least the place where those of us who wish to be in the "Louvre of Rp" get to go?
I personally used to roleplay very heavily. These days, it's more casual, and I do not do events/stories or anything out of it. Yes, some of it has to do with not having the time any more, but a lot of it is because I gave up on game companies not caring.
The DAOC example, yes, is a bit extreme. That's a bit much even for the old me. However, there are NO attempts to monitor games for toxic behavior. Not just people who aren't roleplaying, but people who actively name their characters "PotJockey McWifebeater" - and who act exactly like you would expect someone with that name to. (Or are THEY the true roleplayers now, hmm? ....No, no they aren't.)
Without even the barest attempt to monitor any kind of rules, games have gone down the "roleplaying-suggested" route, which further enforces the idea that developers just do. Not. Care. RPers are a statistical minority, I understand that, but so are hardcore raiders, and they don't have problems catering to them. Is it because RPers aren't the kind to take to the forums, flame up the place, and make threats to the developers on social media?
Anyway, after 13-14 years of putting up with game after game, person after person, and one immersion-breaking thing after another caused by players who not only dont RP, but actively look for it to try to ruin it, I have all but given up on anything but in-guild stuff. And when you lose the people willing to put themselves out in the community and make the world alive and breathing, you lose a lot of what made the older MMOs so sticky - it's the "community" we lost, that people wrongly attribute to group finding tools and other quality-of-life improvements.
Why? Because being crapped on by 420Legolaslol isn't fun, and the first response anyone ever gets when they complain about it is "lol its the internet grow a thicker skin" followed by "man whys this game so dead lately?"
The DAOC example, yes, is a bit extreme. That's a bit much even for the old me. However, there are NO attempts to monitor games for toxic behavior. Not just people who aren't roleplaying, but people who actively name their characters "PotJockey McWifebeater" - and who act exactly like you would expect someone with that name to. (Or are THEY the true roleplayers now, hmm? ....No, no they aren't.)
Without even the barest attempt to monitor any kind of rules, games have gone down the "roleplaying-suggested" route, which further enforces the idea that developers just do. Not. Care. RPers are a statistical minority, I understand that, but so are hardcore raiders, and they don't have problems catering to them. Is it because RPers aren't the kind to take to the forums, flame up the place, and make threats to the developers on social media?
Anyway, after 13-14 years of putting up with game after game, person after person, and one immersion-breaking thing after another caused by players who not only dont RP, but actively look for it to try to ruin it, I have all but given up on anything but in-guild stuff. And when you lose the people willing to put themselves out in the community and make the world alive and breathing, you lose a lot of what made the older MMOs so sticky - it's the "community" we lost, that people wrongly attribute to group finding tools and other quality-of-life improvements.
Why? Because being crapped on by 420Legolaslol isn't fun, and the first response anyone ever gets when they complain about it is "lol its the internet grow a thicker skin" followed by "man whys this game so dead lately?"
Here's my stupid theory:
I think part of the problem is that there is a natural tension between good RP and large numbers. RP requires some sort of agreed upon rules in order to function properly. These rules can be elaborate pen and paper expys or just a general consensus that "Yeah ok, we are actually in Azeroth instead of Star Wars and you can't be a Sith Lord." You want to be inclusive enough to get a large enough number of role players to move the story along but the more people you get the more likely you are to have personality conflicts, drama, and trolling. The best RP seems to come from small groups or small worlds with strict rule sets (e.g. Neverwinter, RP guild events, smaller population mmos like LOTR). Good RP needs moderation or it just devolves into poorly thought out nonsense hammered out by wanna-be writers screaming about how no one can tell them their precious toon isn't the bastard son of Jaina Proudmoore and Captain Kirk, or dudebros taking time out of their busy day to troll the nerds make pretending they are blacksmiths. It's the Goldshire Effect: The more roleplayers congregate in any one area, the more likely that area will be frequented by people intentionally or unintentionally ruining the day. Everybody whines and complains about RP policing and rules, but I would much rather have to have my NFL conversations in guild chat if it meant that "ISMOKEBALLS420" can't jump around spamming "lol arrpee".
Frankly it doesn't matter how many tools for RP are just lying around if there isn't any moderation. Small communities avoid trolling and drama through exclusivity, but large communities require rules and enforcement in order to function. Most MMO companies have abandoned the 'rule and enforcement' part of community moderation because its probably a headache to sift through legitimate issues and separate them from misunderstandings and deliberate attempts to settle personal beefs. We do this in the real world via our court systems, and they are hideously expensive and time consuming investments. You can't expect Blizzard to succeed where governments often fail, so it's hard to blame them for throwing up their hands and letting communities sort it out themselves via exclusion. This is especially true where the community in question is small, but their needs for moderation are high. It simply isn't cost effective to provide RPrs with the moderation they need to survive. Maybe with smaller niche MMOs becoming more common studios can be more proactive about moderation, but no way blizz/bioware/pw/ncsoft are wasting their time and energy on a problem they know they aren't equipped to tackle.
It's a shame too, RPers make games so much more interesting to play. (note: that was the saltiest I've ever seen our editor-in-chief get and it was still mighty polite)
I think part of the problem is that there is a natural tension between good RP and large numbers. RP requires some sort of agreed upon rules in order to function properly. These rules can be elaborate pen and paper expys or just a general consensus that "Yeah ok, we are actually in Azeroth instead of Star Wars and you can't be a Sith Lord." You want to be inclusive enough to get a large enough number of role players to move the story along but the more people you get the more likely you are to have personality conflicts, drama, and trolling. The best RP seems to come from small groups or small worlds with strict rule sets (e.g. Neverwinter, RP guild events, smaller population mmos like LOTR). Good RP needs moderation or it just devolves into poorly thought out nonsense hammered out by wanna-be writers screaming about how no one can tell them their precious toon isn't the bastard son of Jaina Proudmoore and Captain Kirk, or dudebros taking time out of their busy day to troll the nerds make pretending they are blacksmiths. It's the Goldshire Effect: The more roleplayers congregate in any one area, the more likely that area will be frequented by people intentionally or unintentionally ruining the day. Everybody whines and complains about RP policing and rules, but I would much rather have to have my NFL conversations in guild chat if it meant that "ISMOKEBALLS420" can't jump around spamming "lol arrpee".
Frankly it doesn't matter how many tools for RP are just lying around if there isn't any moderation. Small communities avoid trolling and drama through exclusivity, but large communities require rules and enforcement in order to function. Most MMO companies have abandoned the 'rule and enforcement' part of community moderation because its probably a headache to sift through legitimate issues and separate them from misunderstandings and deliberate attempts to settle personal beefs. We do this in the real world via our court systems, and they are hideously expensive and time consuming investments. You can't expect Blizzard to succeed where governments often fail, so it's hard to blame them for throwing up their hands and letting communities sort it out themselves via exclusion. This is especially true where the community in question is small, but their needs for moderation are high. It simply isn't cost effective to provide RPrs with the moderation they need to survive. Maybe with smaller niche MMOs becoming more common studios can be more proactive about moderation, but no way blizz/bioware/pw/ncsoft are wasting their time and energy on a problem they know they aren't equipped to tackle.
It's a shame too, RPers make games so much more interesting to play. (note: that was the saltiest I've ever seen our editor-in-chief get and it was still mighty polite)
