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Post by Morreion on Jan 30, 2009 9:28:48 GMT -5
Sandbox MMOs- those worlds that give you plenty to do, and let you do it, as opposed to the theme parks that guide everyone down a pre-determined route as a playing experience- are not in fashion, and perhaps are attractive to a minority of players, but they have one huge advantage- freedom of choice for the player. I believe this leads ultimately to a more satisfying experience, and a longer subscription.
Why do we all have to trod the same deep ruts in the same zones doing the same things? That's quite old now. A sandbox lets you carve out a part of the world, set up camp there, and do what you want. Perhaps I want to be a hermit ranger who lives in a little cottage in a big out-of-the-way forest, hunting wildlife and taming creatures. Or perhaps I want to start a small player village along a remote coast, and venture out to the many islands to explore by ship- or maybe raid as part of a pirate crew from a hidden cove. Or maybe I want to be part of a bandit group living in the hills next to a popular city, and waylay people. Or be part of a city guard and hunt down bandits and thieves, protecting new players.
I don't want to quest for that darn Necklace of 3 Hit Points by killing 10 rats like every single other player in the game does! Nor do I want to go to the same zone doing the same things that everyone else is doing. I've done that for years. I'm ready to do what I'd like to do.
The replay value alone of carving out your own career is extensive.
A successful sandbox game will get my attention!
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Post by EchoVamper on Jan 30, 2009 16:49:11 GMT -5
I'm up for a sandbox too. I'm at the point in my gaming career where I'd be really happy with a world full of challenges (not quests or grinds) and the ability to just start along a focused path; one that could make a difference, but wasn't a theme park.
I would take a shot at an environment where you could advance through other means than just grinding and PvPing and still have some success. One might take the path of crafting, economy, building, fighting, diplomacy, politics or whatever.
Of all the games I've tried, the original Star Wars Galaxies was actually a game where one could attempt to do this. It is too bad that it was eviscerated by the developers. If they had actually moved it closer to a sandbox in lieu of the combat upgrade and other radical changes, it might have held up longer. I had hopes for Vanguard's potential in this regard, but other failings truncated its progress.
Right now I'm just dinking around in a couple of MMOs but not really fully engaged. It seems that the emergence of a truly vibrant community in theme park MMOs may be a thing of the past due to changes in player bases, but I think one could develop in a sandbox. There could be different "careers" available; somewhat interdependent for sure, but unhinged from one another enough that players could take many paths to the same (or different) outcomes.
It's an interesting thing to wish for, but the formula would be complex. It would require an abundant economy that was player driven, meaningful crafting, opportunities for non-combat influence on combat objectives, and other things I am sure.
The medieval/fantasy genre has perhaps run its course. Give me a more contemporary or futuristic "world" or something parallel to that, and I might get a bit excited.
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Post by EchoVamper on Jan 30, 2009 17:02:06 GMT -5
You know, now that I'm thinking about it. The MMO approach to PvE is pretty stale right now too. Much of the adventure has been taken out of it. It becomes only a means to an end (or an end-game): a very limited and finite challenge which is pretty easily calculable.
Using DAoC as an example, what if you really didn't know when or where you'd run into a Finlaith or a Salamander? What if mobs occasionally escaped Darkness Falls and wandered into Ardee or Mularn or Cotswold? What if some of the predictability of PvE was tempered with a randomness that would keep players on their toes and bring them together for survival? ...and many other possibilities of that nature.
Often I have thought of an environment where mobs of various cons had the potential to spawn in various random places, where crafting produced (rarely) the best gear in the game, where powerful items were truly unique (but there was always the potential for more to appear), and where many types of good, services, and equipment were both player-made and integral to the game.
Enough for now. Comment!
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Post by Morreion on Jan 30, 2009 19:40:13 GMT -5
Hello Echo, glad to see you here!  I remember the original SWG and you are right, that was a sandbox game. Plenty to do on different worlds, and a skill-type system to boot. Remember the early growth of player towns? The cantinas were great too! *sighs* Were. Have to agree with you on mob AI complexity, too. Unpredictable is good. As a matter of fact, I'm just going to post an article Oatik found called Ten Ways to Fix MMOs, it makes that point and others that I think are worthy of discussion. Check it out! |
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Post by EchoVamper on Nov 10, 2009 12:37:48 GMT -5
Sandbox MMOs- those worlds that give you plenty to do, and let you do it, as opposed to the theme parks that guide everyone down a pre-determined route as a playing experience- are not in fashion, and perhaps are attractive to a minority of players, but they have one huge advantage- freedom of choice for the player. I believe this leads ultimately to a more satisfying experience, and a longer subscription. Why do we all have to trod the same deep ruts in the same zones doing the same things? That's quite old now. A sandbox lets you carve out a part of the world, set up camp there, and do what you want. Perhaps I want to be a hermit ranger who lives in a little cottage in a big out-of-the-way forest, hunting wildlife and taming creatures. Or perhaps I want to start a small player village along a remote coast, and venture out to the many islands to explore by ship- or maybe raid as part of a pirate crew from a hidden cove. Or maybe I want to be part of a bandit group living in the hills next to a popular city, and waylay people. Or be part of a city guard and hunt down bandits and thieves, protecting new players. I don't want to quest for that darn Necklace of 3 Hit Points by killing 10 rats like every single other player in the game does! Nor do I want to go to the same zone doing the same things that everyone else is doing. I've done that for years. I'm ready to do what I'd like to do. The replay value alone of carving out your own career is extensive. A successful sandbox game will get my attention! This is something very abstract that I’ve been thinking about more and more lately. Until that ultimate Sandbox comes along we may be left with only the option of creating: A Sandbox within a Theme Park What is the game that you think has the best combination of these things?: 1. Graphics that are good to great, but not necessarily state of the art 2. A very flexible UI and user-friendly chat system that allows for emotes, unfettered communication and is at least casual role play-friendly 3. An attractive world that has plenty of places to explore and a number of places that one may adopt as a place of operation (a “home” in the general sense) 4. An efficient grouping mechanism 5. Classes that work well in concert with each other 6. The ability to insulate oneself from unwanted player dynamics without insulating oneself from content 7. Challenging and enjoyable PvE at the least; an option for PvP/RvR preferable 8. A lore that can be absorbed and enjoyed 9. The best potential to build a little island of community process in a destination-oriented culture. 10. Other things you really value that I haven't listed What existing MMO best fits that description now? Is there one? That place might be the best home for a group like ours. Satisfying our needs may require that we establish a unique set of goals within a game and focus on them rather than the rat race that the game provides. I don’t know what those would be, maybe controlling one tower or keep long term, maybe helping others , maybe building bridges and buildings, maybe lots of other things that we agree on. I suspect they’d be different than what the game developers’ would point us to. They could be anything…but they’d be one big flywheel that we all push on. Such a thing could actually, over time, if done right, change the face of an MMO. |
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Post by Loendal on Nov 10, 2009 14:43:48 GMT -5
* sigh * I read this thread and get depressed... EVERYTHING that's mentioned in this post is what I want out of an MMO. None of them deliver on it. I wanted my Lands of Neuhnee to be like this and every time I see a post in here saying "I sure wish they'd do X" I just want to scream "That's what I'm trying to do!". It's futile though, as I haven't the programming know-how to even get such a thing off the ground. In theory, it's all very simple, in practice it's a thousand times more difficult. I can create formulas to emulate anything and everything that people have mentioned on this board but I have no where to plug them in! I don't think any MMO is going to live up to our expectations, let alone our wishes. Gumbling over... To the list of 10 you have above. Istaria fits a good many of those points (1,2,4,5 and 9 at least). It may also fit #3... There's alot of world out there, but most of it is empty dead space. Also you cannot build "anywhere" you are forced into designated "Player Building Zones". If you want to build anywhere, you need SWG or A Tale in the Desert (Which falls flat on most of the other 9 points  ). DDO fits #5 and 7 (DDO's dynamic, free-form combat is great). I don't know if you'll find something to fit #6 if you actually want anyone else around other than your selected group. The dynamics are there, we are the ones that don't fit into them. Point #8 is a little subjective, as everyone's immersion value varies. It's hard to find a story that'll "work" for everyone at one time. Anyone else want to take a stab? |
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Post by Morreion on Nov 10, 2009 14:57:55 GMT -5
This is a great question, Echo. It's a damn shame it isn't easier to answer.
I truly would like to play a sandbox game again.
Loendal is right, I fear. The only games I can come up with in the sandbox-style genre are the following...Loendal mentioned Horizons/Istaria so I'll skip that one, it does have a sandbox-type feel to it and it is worth considering. And the old SWG was great, but Sony killed it.
1) UO. This was a fantastic sandbox game with tons of things to do back in the day, but EA took it over and it has deteriorated since the glory days. It also is effectively a 2D game (which doesn't bother me) but I'll admit it does not look good compared to most games out there.
2) Darkfall. I've never tried this but from all that I've read about it, free-for-all PvP is pretty much all you can do. It is very combat-oriented with little or nothing else to do. That keeps me away. I remember my disappointed with WAR when it released and it was 'all war, all the time', meaning that there was nothing else to do, really. I like lots of things to do.
3) Mortal Online. This looks like another PvP-oriented title that is an uncoming release. I've heard some rumors that things might not be going well in the beta there, but I'd be willing to check it out further.
4) Fallen Earth. This is a sandbox and I was intrigued by it, though it is combat and crafting focused. I wish it had lots of stuff to do like UO had. Not a bad game from what I saw of it, but something didn't 'click' with me. I'd be willing to try it again if others were playing there.
5) EVE. This is an odd game to categorize since it is a spaced-based you-are-your ship game. I tried it back in the day and it looked great but I missed having an avatar. Being a ship is an acquired taste. If other people want to play it though, let me know!
6) Vanguard. Technically Vanguard is not a sandbox game but it has a huge playing area (2 continents and an archipelago of islands) and it feels huge. I loved that feel. There were like 15 or 16 starting areas for different races. There is player housing in the actual world at designated plots, and you can make ships to travel the seas. It has an epic feel to it. Not quite a sandbox, but its the next best thing. I'd be willing to make a return visit there!
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Post by EchoVamper on Nov 10, 2009 15:31:32 GMT -5
Yes, I know I'm dreaming, but I wanted to just throw something out there and see what people said.
For #6: (6. The ability to insulate oneself from unwanted player dynamics without insulating oneself from content ) Perhaps I should say "escape from" (even if just for a moment) rather than "insulate from"...but I do agree that even that is a hard one to satisfy.
For #8: I was simply thinking of a game-generated lore that was broadly compatible with what the group wanted to do...not so much player-developed lore, as I see the best player-developed lore as a dynamically evolving thing and not in any way prescribed. The players would start out with some broadly stated outcomes that were reasonably compatible with the game world and then build their personal lore as they went.
I'd like to make my next foray into an MMO somewhat intentional. I don't need a rigid plan in place. It can be very flexible. I am mostly fascinated with the possibility of RE-visiting a game...with some knowledge of it, but this time with an outcome-based strategy for extracting maximum enjoyment from it.
I know that it's kind of a peg/hole mismatch...but the question still tugs at me. "How can thoughtful players insert a vital community into an existing game that is not entirely community-friendly, and make it work?"
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Post by Morreion on Nov 11, 2009 9:50:10 GMT -5
Doh! How could I have forgotten Dawntide in my list of sandbox games? This game is in beta 2 heading towards open beta now, here is some information. |
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